DX 15 at Stewartby

[Mark Aldridge]

Gordon - you forgot to mention the third and main reason for attending these events:

3. Generous consumption of Red Wine!

[Mike Robertshaw]

Hi everyone,

I am a fairly recent convert to the Sprint 15 and I have to say I have not regretted for a second moving to the class. I must admit that one of the reasons for joining the fleet and the association was the reputation of all 15 sailors as a friendly helpful bunch.

I have attended a few events now and have met quite a lot of association members, I can honestly say that the reputation is well deserved.

I have been reading this thread and have been a bit reluctant to post a thread as I don't feel qualified to express an informed view. I have been surprised at the tone of some of the posts and thought that as a newbie I might throw some oil on the water without getting my head bitten off.

I believe that there are two ways for someone to join the 15 fleet:
1. Buy a new boat from Brian, in which case the boat would be supplied in standard format
2. Buy a second hand boat, in which case it is more than likely standard format, unless youre very lucky and find a boat with standard and DX

In this case the DX is surely a development of the class and if newcommers were thinking of the 15 then they will come anyway but if others wanted something a bit more modern then they would be attracted to the class because of the possibility of the DX rig.

I have been happy to race against the DX at events in the same way that I have been happy to race in Una rig against Sport mode. I'm not convinced that a third DX format is such a problem but I do think that by creating for and against factions within the association then we are creating an altogether more insideous problem that we should be well advised to avoid.

I will be at Carsington and will remember to duck if I see anyone marching towards me with teeth barred.

Mike

[Mark Aldridge]

Mike

What you say makes sense, however the class association has made the decision. Only time will tell now.

[Jaycb]

Having just re-read this thread, I have to say it's a shame that the DX is not to be allowed. Similarly, I noted in the last magazine that the new battens have been abandoned.
This class is becoming an antique boat preservation club - it makes no financial sense for anyone to buy a new Sprint at over £7000, unless they're a previous owner who's heavily into competion. Anyone new to the sport with that sort of money to throw around has plenty of more modern, cheaper alternatives - you can pick up a brand new Topaz with genaker for a fraction of the price of a new Sprint.
Ray and Steve have tried to inject some new life into the class with a more modern sail, and fibrefoam battens were trialled (presumably due to the appalling fibreglass ones), but nothing has come of it. On this forum I've suggested making cheaper copies of the existing sails class-legal only to be ignored. My suspicion is that there is an entrenched "don't do anything to upset Windsport" attitude in this association and it's stifling us.

[Liam]

Having just re-read this thread, I have to say it's a shame that the DX is not to be allowed.

...Within twelve events.

The Association has no ability to ban the sails, they have just stated that for the time being it will not be class legal. That does not stop anybody buying, sailing or racing their own DX sails outside of those 12 events. If the rig becomes popular then I am sure they will be under plenty of pressure to reconsider.

[Erling]

Hi Jaycb I think the attitude is most of us sail the 15 because it gives good class racing, that's the reason I do most of the events like Gordon. If you designed the 15 today I would change most of the parts of the boat as over the last 30 years engineering has come a long way, lets have new Rudders and Traveller's for a start. Or should we all just enjoy the boat as it is and the good company we sail with?

[Martin Searle]

Having just re-read this thread, I have to say it's a shame that the DX is not to be allowed. Similarly, I noted in the last magazine that the new battens have been abandoned.
This class is becoming an antique boat preservation club - it makes no financial sense for anyone to buy a new Sprint at over £7000, unless they're a previous owner who's heavily into competion. Anyone new to the sport with that sort of money to throw around has plenty of more modern, cheaper alternatives - you can pick up a brand new Topaz with genaker for a fraction of the price of a new Sprint.
Ray and Steve have tried to inject some new life into the class with a more modern sail, and fibrefoam battens were trialled (presumably due to the appalling fibreglass ones), but nothing has come of it. On this forum I've suggested making cheaper copies of the existing sails class-legal only to be ignored. My suspicion is that there is an entrenched "don't do anything to upset Windsport" attitude in this association and it's stifling us.

These are my own personal views and not of the committee:

I've sort of been trying to stay out of this but I think its time to air my views.

I don't think there is an attitude of not upsetting the windsport applecart. In the case of the battens windsport had proposed the fibrefoam alternates but worked with the SA company making the fibreglass ones to improve their quality control and manufacturing.

I'm all for the DX sails since for the heavier sailor (which I'm definately am at 1 stone per foot of boat!) they would appear to add life to the boat so thanks to Ray and Steve for their efforts. But I think by saying that they can form a seperate class association and stage their own events and activities this will actually help the DX owners since they will be able to take part in single format racing against their peers which lets face it is what we want. Would I buy them?, Yes but not this year since I have other large expenses coming up!

From the sprint 15 point of view if we accepted the DX sail into the association and then it started to win all the TT events then some would think "if I want to win at these TT's then I need to buy these additional sails for £800 or so in addition to the ones I already have!" Obviously not all of us can afford such things and thus there would be an impact on TT attendance.

Also some of the new classes can sometimes be a flash in the pan and never reach a critical mass to survive beyond a few years and fade away (e.g Dart Sting). Other boats have gone through these sail improvements and caused themselves to fail (hurricane is a case in point as Bob C. has previously stated) for precisely the reason stated above.

However if you take the laser and rooster 8.1 example (also by Bob) then this would seem to be successful allowing both varients of laser to survive independantly of one another. Those wanting the extra sail area can simply add the new lower mast and sail and when they want to goto a normal laser event just take their normal sails and lower mast. Thus we can do exactly the same with our 15's just put up the DX sails for DX events and normal sails for the TT's. The best of both worlds IMO.

Martin S.

[WaveyDavey]

I second Martin's response above, and also previous posting by Gordon.

I wish the DX well and I'm tempted to buy one when funds allow, but I support the class association in restricting its activities to the boat and rig in their original formats, with the occasional low-cost, retro-fittable, performance neutral(ish) enhancements.

For me, the strength and success of the 15 lies in affordable, accessible, friendly and competitive sailing.

I don't think its important that a new Sprint 15 can't compete on price with more modern cats of a similar size. I'm glad that a small number of people have the enthusiasm and funds to buy new boats, but it is the supply of competitive and affordable second hand boats that is critical to class success. We must be careful of anything that could be seen to obsolete or devalue the majority of that used-boat pool.

A large one-design fleet (albeit multi-format) at TTs as well as nationals offers great competition for all skill levels, relatively independent of pocket depth. We should avoid fragmenting the fleet at class events.

I think that actively racing and promoting the standard boat should be our priority. Off the back of that continued success I hope a significant offshoot of DX sailors can be developed and sustained (a la the Rooster 8.1 model).

Just my opinion though... and I could be wrong.

[RobBowen]

So, just to stick my 2 pence worth in to the mix here. Surely the question has to be asked "what or who exactly is the long term future of the class", and then any arguments either way need to take this into account more than anything else? I don't have a specific preference about the DX rig for myself, but maybe we're missing a trick here. Dare I say it that at 38 years old I am NOT the long term future of the 15, I am (sorry guys) too old! Remember at the nationals if you were there 3 young ladies and one young man crewing for their dads who (although I may be biased here as one of the dads) breathed a fair old bit of fresh air into the mix - shouldn't these guys be the ones we are considering when future decisions are being made?

Simon has already posted about Lily being too big and looking for another boat for her, Hannah has crewed on an 18 now, and is hooked on trapezing as well as being too big now for a standard 15. Maybe a great market for the DX is actually exactly us / Simon & Lily et al. Set up the boat as a 2 up single trapeze cat and extend the sailing life of the crewed partnership until the crew is big enough to drive one him / herself.

There are very few young people in the 15 fleet, despite the boat being perfect for them. Why? maybe because the set up of the boat forces them to find an alternative when they are too big to crew or too small to helm on their own. Could the DX solve that problem for us? I've been thinking it might be fun to give the 18 a run for their money in handicap racing too with a DX rig on Batcat! Hannah loves 15 sailing, but she is pushed away from it by being too big for it. Anyone else been thinking similarly?

[Robert]

Not sure that many people have thought of that one, Rob. Good point. As things stand at the moment, only the DX fleet could cater for this need. It can only be hoped that young people attracted to the DX might also spend some time at the Sprint 15 events.

[Charles]

Rob

I hadn't thought about that option either.

Elenya is also too big to crew competitively in a 15 & Alexander (7yr old brother) is only a few pounds beind her. So sadly at 10 & 7 they are already looking at retirement from the class. I've been thinking about a Topper for them.

To be honest I don't know whether the DX would provide sufficient power for Dad & growing child, but as you say it might be interesting finding out.

I've got an 18 as well as my 15 & Elenya has crewed a race for me. I was considering doing the odd local 18 event (Dee) with her if the forecast was for light winds & if bigger winds I know where I can find a willing gorilla!

Yet another twist to the tale...

[Robert]

There is also the interesting prospect for people who like trapezing but don't want to bother with a jib. The DX could provide an opportunity for some simple flying in such cases (given suitable wind, that is).

[Bob Carter]

There is also the interesting prospect for people who like trapezing but don't want to bother with a jib. The DX could provide an opportunity for some simple flying in such cases (given suitable wind, that is).

Hi Robert,
So why don't you buy one and use it at Carsington? At £1167 for the DX kit it is certainly not for the parsimonious and looks to be very bad value for money for the small amount of benefit you get off the wind. In an upwind direction it looses out to well sailed unarig and Sport mode boats, and it spoils the class racing.
Cheers
Bob

[Frank]

Bob, have you got your figures right £1167? Add that to the price of a decent boat to put it on, and you would soon be nudging £4000.
If it’s trapezing & thrills you’re after, for £5000, you could have a brand new Topper Topaz Xtream ---- but nobody to race against !!

[Simon Giles]

As other members of the 2Up Crew have posted I thought maybe I should !

I accept the concerns about the DX fragmenting the class, but that is only likely to occur if it proves successful. It looks nice but I wouldn't buy the DX for two reasons:

1) I've never really felt the 15 was under canvassed and If I need more power I just go out when there is more wind.
2) The plight of the 2Up sailors not being able to compete with una-rig due to their rapidly expanding crews is more an issue of the PY than the sail area.

Rob said at 38 "he is not the future of the class" - You most definately are - the beauty of our boat is you can race it at a high standard into your 70's as plenty of helms have demonstrated.

So is the DX to attract young sailors - if so what age ? It is probably too powerful for most under 18s and the 18-30 lot are probably looking for more bang for their buck (ahem!) - some flash assymetric thing I expect.

I'm not convinced there is a problem here that needs fixing.

Out of interest Lily wants to sail MY Sprint without ME on board (dam cheek) so I've just had made a smaller training sail and will let you know how we get on!