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Loose Beams [Geoff Howlett]

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Loose Beams [Geoff Howlett]

Post by Archive »

Geoff Howlett wrote:

The cross beams on my old Dart 15 are a very loose fit in the hulls. I have noticed other newer boats have a gap at the bow end top of the beams. Is this a necessary design feature, or can I pack the complete socket with filler? any comments please.
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Loose Beams [Bob]

Post by Archive »

Bob replied:

Hi Geoff, This one is new to me. I suggest either of the following:
1) Give Steve Sawford a call on 01832 733540 or 07979 528630
2) Dust off the wallett and watch out for our Autumn New boat special offer.
Cheers
Bob
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Re Loose Beams [George Stephen]

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George Stephen replied:

ALWAYS remember that the trampoline holds the Dart together. If you don't get the tramp fully tensioned, the beams will move around in the hulls and progressively widen the hull sockets (I suppose the aluminium of the beams might also get compressed. As the gaps get bigger the rate at which further damage occurs will only get worse.

You may find that there is also gelcoat wear on the hulls where the distance pieces on the beams touch them - this will probably make the hulls don't quite make a right angle to the beams, probably "toeing in".

So ALWAYS lash your trampoline as tight as you can, and check it's still taut every time you sail - you'll usually find it needs tightening shortly after you've fitted the tramp (eg after car-topping). If your beams are a little loose, then getting the tramp really taut (distorting the plastic rear beam fittings) will normally keep the boat "stiff".

As regards solving the problem, I spoke to Steve Sawford some time ago. He reckons it's not easy to glass up the hull sockets, especially to get them "true" - you don't want the hulls angled. He suggested to me that I should get the hulls true (how do you do this and keep them true while working on the cat?), and then insert small thin pieces of tough laminate (eg like Formica) with glue on one side ( not the beam side ) to precisely take up the gaps. Leave until set.

This advice was based on a solution he'd heard from another Dart sailor (I think a Dart 18 sailor).

I asked Steve if I could then glass up the sockets using the glued pieces as a template, spreading the load bearing area as far as possible. Steve wasn't sure this was would be easy, as there was a chance the beams would not slide in due to some resin/glass standing proud.

You certainly can, and should, gelcoat any wear due to rubbing of the beam distance pieces, to get the hulls the right distance apart.

Where I sail (Thames Estuary where it widens out from 7 miles) the sea can develop an ugly short chop (25-30 feet between wave crests, and trough to wave crest heights can exceed 5 feet) in strong winds. I learned very quickly to lash the tramp really tight, and hull and socket wear has been restricted to a level where Steve's suggestion would not be easy to implement.

Steve may have other suggestions, or even know of repairers who've done repair work - if you think about it the problem should be more common on Dart 18s where the strains will be much higher.

But Tim Dieu de Beellefontaine probably knows some repairers, who may be more interested in doing any repair work than advising you how to do it!).

Good luck,

George
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Loose Beams [Geoff Howlett]

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Geoff Howlett replied:

Thanks, Bob and George. I'll have a go.
Charles
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Re: Loose Beams [Geoff Howlett]

Post by Charles »

I've opened up this post again as I am renovating a Spark with the same problem.

I haven't tried packing the beam housings yet, as there are plenty of other things to do first.

Does anyone else have experience of sloppy beams & suggestions as to how to achieve a nice tight fit?

Thanks
Charles
1942, Ingrid
Halifax SWC
God does not deduct from our allotted life span the time spent sailing (or talking, texting, reading, posting to websites & emailing about it)
Brian Phipps
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Re: Loose Beams [Geoff Howlett]

Post by Brian Phipps »

Hi Charles, The Windsport Dart18 and Sprint 15 repair centre has " Beam fitted" a number of Dart18 and a few Spark/Dart15/ Sprint15 platforms in the past for customers. The boat was designed to be taken apart therefore there needs to be a beam tolerance to allow for that. The original spec provided that tolerance although like all tolerance systems it is possible you could end up with max tolerance beam housing and minium tolerance beam giving you slightly more movement than the other way round. George is right a tight trampoline helps platforms stiffness, but over the years and especially if the boat is sailed where sand gets into the joints etc the beams can grind against the housing and increase that tolerance.
A solution if you want to to spend the time is to wrap some packing tape or similar around one beam area to creat a tolerance, and apply pre release to the surface. Beam up the hulls on a flat surface and then check diagonals etc to make sure all is square. Suggest you work on one beam at a time, apply filler down the gap between beam and beam housing on both sides of the hull. Carefully, and with some care remove the beam to leave the filler edge in palace. Use this guidemark to apply filler across the beam housing area and then file out and test the beam with packing tape removed to suit. Repeat process on the other beam.
Remeber you do need some tolerance else you will not get the boat apart and that is part of the prodcution one design spec, the hulls must be removable by hand without tools.
Alternitvly you could experiement by just using packing tape around the beams to reduce the movement before going to all that trouble.
Whilst a stiff boat is a fast boat, most of the gains I see as a coach are made by constructive practise time on the water that is then applied to the race course.
Some say beaming up your beams is more in your head than in the benifits , but if you do have a particuarly sloppy fit here is a solution.
The beam tolerance on a new Sprint15 is certainly within spec and provides a stiff platform, along with all the other bits that run smoothly .
All the best
Brian Phipps Windsport
Sprint15 Technical support.
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Steve Willis
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Re: Loose Beams

Post by Steve Willis »

Hi Charles. Here is some info on my solution since it was last raised.

In 2008 my old spark (756) was quite loose in the beam sockets and I built a wooden 'table' on which I could sit the boat supported by the beams with the hulls hanging either side (trampoline on and high enough to fit the rudders fully down). This enabled me to do some measuring of hull movement, hull alignment and rudder alignment - and showed that my hulls were 20mm closer at the bow than the stern, using the skeg line width as the measuring point.

The problem resulted from wear in the beam sockets leading to the front beam stops (the white brackets under the beams) wearing the hull surface. Whilst I could have easily built up the hull and replace the beam stops this would not have cured the grinding problem. I too looked at gelcoating in the sockets but it was not going to be easy to build up evenly.

In the end I did some experimenting with duck tape to see how much thickness I needed to be able to insert and withdraw the beams but remove the 'slop'. I had some reinforced reservoir liner left over from shed roofing and I found that by using one thickness of that over the whole socket width of the beam - glued on with evostik worked perfectly on both the front and rear beams and left the boat much tighter. In order to help prevent the hull wear at the beam stops I chose not to build up the hull or replace the brackets. Instead, again by measurement, I found that a 3mm thick rectangle of hard neoprene glued to each of the front beam brackets was sufficient to align the hulls. I believed that this semi flexible material would remove some of the shock loading in heavy seas and would prevent wear.

I then also did similar work on our Dart 18 and can report that, following two seasons of sailing in everything up to the top of F6 the mods have worked perfectly (and the beams can still be removed). If anyone is interested in trying this out I used Fawcett Liners No.10 reservoir liner (woven thread in UV protected PVC) from http://www.fawcettsliners.co.uk

In terms of longevity of this material, the first time I used it was on my garage and outbuildings roof in about 1990 and that sheet is still there 20 odd years later with no discernable deterioration. It is sold primarily for water board and farm reservoirs. £3.84 a sq metre at present.

If anyone coming to the SSC Training weekend in April - my boat table is in the SSC field and I will level it up beforehand so it can be used to check boat alignment for anyone interested.

By the way - having realigned the hulls using the boat table I then found that the rudders were not vertical or aligned with the skeg line. I found that the top hull fixing for one of the rudders was not in its right position. It was tight but when I undid it I found that the bolt holes had worn in the hull and had allowed the fitting to be moved about 2-3mm outwards - giving about 15mm of misalignment at the tip of the blade. I reglassed the holes and then redrilled to refix the fitting in the correct position.
Charles
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Re: Loose Beams [Geoff Howlett]

Post by Charles »

Brian / Steve

Thanks for your detailed input, I'll consider both options.

It's certainly worth doing something to arrest further deterioration, as well as making sure the tramp is kept tight.
Charles
1942, Ingrid
Halifax SWC
God does not deduct from our allotted life span the time spent sailing (or talking, texting, reading, posting to websites & emailing about it)
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